Chimney Balloon fireplace damper

How much does it cost to run a gas log fireplace?

Q: I know vented gas log firepalces are inefficient to run, but how much does an hour of use cost if you are burning propane in an average vented gas log? - DR

A: Hi Dr, Well the cost will depend upon your cost of propane and the BTU of your device but lets make an estimate:

Say you have a 45,000 BTU unit and Propane costs $3 per gallon. The cost would be about $1.50 per hour to operate it. (Since a 90,000 btu unit will consume 1 gallon in an hour)

Keep in mind as well that you are getting very little if any heat gain from this fuel consumption. That is the travesty of vented gas logs. - Jason

 

Gas fireplace has a bad burning or smokey smell when it is on.

Q: Jason, Turned on gas fireplace and am noticing a bad burning almost smokey smell about 1-2 minutes after it is lit. We noticed it back in February when we lit it as well. Haven't had it cleaned in a while, but not sure if it maybe coming from something else? - JR

A: Dear JR, It could be a number of things, dirty burner, bad fuel to air mix, might even be a sticker burning off some of the hardware. I would have it checked out right away especially if it has a burning paper or petroleum kind of smell to it. If it has more of a burnt wood aroma, this fireplace must have been used as a wood burning fireplace before it was used as a gas log fireplace. Often over the summer the humidity will mix with the creosote and soot deposits left in the flue of a wood burning fireplace and make a very smelly burnt aroma. When you add flue heat to that mixture by turning on the gas log under it...well, that just stirs the smell up more. Sometimes a chimney cleaning will help the situation but sometimes it just stirs up more smells by brushing and agitating the creosote lining the chimney.

I would have a CSIA certified Chimney Sweep come and take a look at it and do a through cleaning and checkup on it. The smell may be worst at first after the cleaning, but it will tone back down over time. A sweep can get most of the deposits cleaned off and be sure to have him take a good look at your gas log set to make sure it is running well and not kicking combustion fumes into the home. - Jason

How can we fix the drafty grate on a vented gas fireplace?

Q: Jason, I have a vented gas fireplace that is very drafty - the cold air is drastically lowering the temperature of the surround hearth tile. The bulk of the draft is coming from the 3 inch tall grate at the bottom of the fireplace - the grate sits on the tile.

We have had contractors tell us that the fireplace was not insulated properly when it was installed 20 years ago - and that this is common. We have been advised that the only way to solve the problem is to tear out the fireplace - which is surrounded by nice tile, and either solve the insulation problem and reinstall or install a new fireplace. Expensive! Would a chimney balloon help? We are not interested in using the fireplace - it just sits there as a heat sucking ornament.- KN

A: Dear KN, Vented gas log fireplaces are notorious for being drafty and cold. Most of the time vented gas log fireplaces do not have a flue damper or the damper is clipped open or disabled. This allows a huge amount of cold air in, and allows significant home heat loss in the winter.

It is hard to tell without seeing your fireplace, but I have a feeling in your particular fireplace there is a through movement of air from the chimney flue to the grate that is steadily cooling your fireplace hearth. A good start on stopping this cross current is to put a Chimney Balloon in the flue and make sure the gas supply tap is turned off to this fireplace (since it is not used anyway).

The grate may be a little trickier, as your contractors have alluded to. By "grate" I would assume you mean a fresh air intake on the wall of the firebox? Or by grate do you mean there is an ash pit built into the floor of the firebox (see attached picture)? Or by grate do you mean a vent grate on the outside hearth face of the fireplace?

It may work better if we discuss this application over the phone. That way I can verify I am understanding the anatomy of the fireplace you are describing. You can contact me by calling 608-467-0229 and asking for Jason in Tech support. And it wouldn't hurt to have a few digital photos of the fireplace that you could email. I will be happy to work with you further to troubleshoot this application. - KN

*Note, this was resolved by installing a chimney balloon in the chimney to seal it. The "grate" was an old ash clean-out and that was sealed by installing a small 9x9 chimney balloon into the ash chute from the fireplace.

Gas Fireplace Troubleshooting

What is a Gas Fireplace?

A gas fireplace emulates a real fireplace while burning either propane or natural gas instead of wood. There are two types of gas fireplaces. Some are vented and some are ventless. Vented gas fireplaces are very realistic looking; however there is as much as 90% heat loss since much of it goes up your chimney. The ventless type is designed to operate without a chimney and is very efficient; however it isn't quite as realistic looking as the vented type. So if you just want the look without worrying about wood or heat a vented model will do, but if you want to supplement your current heating system with an appliance which will not require electricity to work once lit and can be manually lit if necessary then the ventless model is the better choice.

Common Problems with Gas Fireplaces

Pilot Light Won't Light: There are a bunch of issues that might keep the pilot from lighting. First check to see if the fuel valve supply to the appliance is in the open position. If it isn't then open it and try to light the pilot. Next, check to see if the emergency shutoff valve is "on" and if it isn't turn it on and try to light the pilot. If you use propane check to see if your propane tank is empty, ensure the appliance setting is on pilot. If it isn't, then set it to pilot and try to light the pilot. Check your instruction manual to ensure you are holding the match in the right place. Hold the reset button down when lighting and ensure you are holding it down long enough to activate the electromagnet in the safety shutoff system, which is 30-60 seconds. If you still can't light the pilot, call a professional.

Pilot Light Lit but Gas Jet Won't Light: Sometimes this happens because the control is not on the "On" setting, or because the thermostat is not set for heat. The solution is to check to see if the valve and remote control are on and check the thermostat to ensure its set to the on position. Also check that the temperature is set to a degree that is above the current temperature in the room. If neither of these solutions fixes the problem it may be caused by a blockage in the orifice or burner. A service call is needed to have a professional fix the problem.

Soot in your room: This is somewhat common on vented gas fireplaces and may indicate an inadequate vent or chimney. The solution is to ensure the damper is open enough. If it is then you should clean the vent or chimney. If you get soot in your room with a ventless gas fireplace it is installed improperly. The solution is to have a professional fix the problem.

Prevention of Gas Fireplace Problems

Have your gas fireplace installation done by a chimney sweep professional and have the appliance serviced regularly. If vented, clean your vent or chimney periodically.

This troubleshooting article was submitted with permission by Highs Chimney Sweep

How can I tell if I have a vented or vent-free (ventless) gas logs?

Q: Jason, I bought my Virginia home about 3 yrs ago, and have never thought about the amount of heat / ac leaving the home until seeing a "home energy saving" piece on the local news. They recommended using a "Chimney Pillow" as a possible solution.

So, I came to your website, spent the last 90 minutes reading EVERY one of your replies to all of these posts, and have become not only more educated on this topic but have developed an admiration for your knowledge & straightforwardness.

The extent of my expertise with fireplaces ceases after the determination has been made that I actually have gas logs (which I do) & not real wood!

Question: How would I know if I have Vented Gas Logs or Non-Vented Gas Logs?

There is a damper (presumably installed during the 1988 construction), which has been closed since move-in day. There is also a gas line that has been turned off since move-in day. I have a VERY cold fireplace & a relatively new chimney cap (installed as a condition of sale 3 yrs ago).

I am fairly convinced that I need a Chimney Balloon, but at 300 lbs with no official contortionist training, I have been reluctant to take the time to remove our toddler gate which would be required to gain access to the fireplace allowing for an appropriate measurement (trust me, it is an event to take this thing apart...14 ft of it that encircles the entire family room)!!

So I guess the first step is determining the vented vs. non-vented issue, then get to work on the toddler gate. Thank you in advance for your time & consideration! - MW

A: Hi MW, I'm sorry it took so long to respond to your post. It has been a very busy week on the phones.

To see if you have a vented or non-vented gas log I would look first on the manufacturer plate on the gas log burner itself. It is usually by the knob that controls the flame height. It should be indicated there. If you can even find a model # you can google that number and see what comes up. If there is no indicator of manufacturer or model on the burner unit, about all you can do is call a professional to come and look at it or take some digital photos of it to a fireplace retailer and get their input.

There is no simple way to identify a vented gas log from a non-vent if it is not marked, even professionals have a hard time indentifying one from another. I have seen plenty of homeowners assume they had a no-vent just because the damper was not removed or clipped open, but it turned out they had a vented unit. Getting this mixup wrong can be lethal, so it is nothing to guess at.

Since you gas log is disabled/inoperable and the gas is shut down to it, you can install a Chimney Balloon to stop the cold draft. Just make sure you mark the gas valve clearly with the red lock out tag that comes with a Chimney Balloon.

If you are not comfortable getting your fireplace fitted and installed for a Chimney Balloon I would look in the phone book for an energy rater to do a house call to measure and install one. Most energy raters and insulation contractors and some chimney sweeps are familiar with Chimney Balloons and can install one for just the cost of a 1 hr house call.

Or if you feel adventurous and you have a folding carpenters ruler in-hand you can call us in tech support (608-467-0229) and we can walk you through the measurement process. It is not really that hard if you have a folding carpenters ruler. It is much easier than using a tape measure. - Jason

What if your gas log fireplace sucked money out of your wallet?

  What would you do if the directions of your vented gas log fireplace said: “Step 4: Turn on gas and light log set with a flaming $10 bill”. No matter what you tried, you couldn’t get the gas log to light unless you burned a $10 bill and put it to the logs to light it. I think you would be tempted to write the manufacturer about this issue, or talk to the store you bought it from, or maybe just not use it!

 

 

The inefficiency of a vented gas log fireplace

In a way, this is what it is like to use a vented gas log fireplace. You get little to no usable heat from the device, you consume fuel in it, its use/or non-use sucks heat from your home, but it sure makes a nice flickery flame. Is it worth it?

There are some key elements that are dead wrong with vented gas log kits. The primary issue is the damper use with these kits. Most state building codes say if a vented gas log is installed in a fireplace the metal damper has to be locked open or removed. The reason for this particular code is so that people don’t turn on their vented gas log and forget to open the damper and therefore asphyxiate the inhabitants of the home. The reality of this code is the homeowner has to live with a sizable hole in their homes energy envelope that is releasing energy 24/7.

 

Vented gas logs do not produce usable heat

The vented gas logs combustion process does little to produce usable heat to the living area. Much like a wood burning fireplace the vented gas log wastes heat in many ways. The combustion process grabs already heated air from your home and burns the oxygen and combustible gasses in it. The heat that is created in this combustion quickly rises and grabs more heated inside air and tosses it up the chimney. You can restrict the amount of inside air that the fireplace has access to by installing glass doors, but this will also severely limit the amount of radiant heat that fireplace can cast forward into your living space. This radiant heat is the heat you feel on your skin in front of the fireplace, and is the only usable heat that the fireplace will produce since the combustion heat is pouring out the top of the chimney. In the meantime the home is drawing in cold outside air from other places (i.e. windows, light sockets, doors, etc) to replace the air that is escaping the home through the chimney. This is referred to as the “stack effect”.

 

How much money and heat is lost?

Most vented gas log operate at a consumption of .5 to 1 Therm per hour. In January of 2008 one  Therm of Natural Gas cost me $1.57. So if you burn your vented gas log for 3 hours you wasted $4.71 worth of fossil fuels, and have no heat to show for it. With that same amount of natural gas you could have heated a 1200 sq ft home with a 95% efficient power vent furnace all day long.

 

Vented gas logs are good for ambiance

The flickery yellow flame that is produced by a vented gas log is a very realistic looking flame, but it is a low temperature flame and therefore tends to burn “dirty” and outputs soot and other pollutants. If you have a vented gas log fireplace or are considering having your wood fireplace fitted for one. Consider first the cost and environmental ramifications of using it.

Dressing up my Gas Log Fireplace

Q: Jason, I am looking to dress up my fireplace with a hearth fender, and maybe some decorative iron hardware. - RC

A: Dear RC, There is a new company on the online scene that sells gas log and fireplace adornments. They are called Gas Log Station and they offer fireplace screens, andirons, grates, accessories and hearth fenders for gas log set ups.

I would encourage you to get some images from a magazine of the look you are going for. I am a fan of the British Traditional look with the fireplace bumpers and andirons. - Jason

Gas Pilot Light and Chimney Balloon? Can you use both?

Q: Jason, Should I be concerned about using the Chimney Baloon to plug the flue if I have a gas fireplace and the pilot light is continuously on? The fireplace also has glass doors that seal about 90% of the fireplace. - CT

A: CT, A small pilot light will not burst the Chimney Balloon, but do keep in mind that when you seal your flue you are essentially eliminating the outside air source for your pilot light. So if the flame goes out the fuel smell will go into the house, and likewise all gases created by the pilot light burning are going into the home. It is our opinion that the gas source should be turned off along with the gas to the pilot so you have no backup of any kind into the home due to the energy saving tight seal of the Chimney Balloon. We realize this is an overly cautious statement to make, but our customers safety is foremost to us. - Jason

What is better a vented-gas log or a vent-free gas log fireplace?

Q: Jason - I have an old vented gas log that is crumbling and needs to be replaced. What is better to replace it with, a vented gas log or an vent-less gas log?-NW

A: NW- If you go with a vented gas log install you will certainly have to commit yourself to having the chimney damper removed or clipped or disabled in the open position according to current code for vented fireplace install. This means you will have a gaping hole to the
outside all the time. Many gas log owners are surprised to find that their fireplace flue damper has already been disabled when their original gas log was installed. The building fireplace code that states to to disable the damper, is often an adequate enough reason for a homeowner not to go with any vented variety gas log.

In the vent-less model you do get the benefit of retaining all of the heat if you keep the damper closed, but any of the CO, CO2, Nitrogen or moisture that it puts out will enter your living area as well. In the winter when your home is closed up you really want to minimize the extra pollutants you introduce to your already recycled inside air. This is not just with the fireplace, this goes for candles, sprays, paints and other pollutants. You obviously cant avoid these items all-together, but do you want to introduce new contributors like a vent-free fireplace?

From our conversation on the phone I am sure you have your heart set on a vented gas log, and you were just looking for brand name references from me. But please take into account other options like electric fireplace inserts if you are looking for fireplace ambiance, or maybe even a candelabra with candles burned with the damper open as other suitable ambiance option that wont cost you in heat loss. - Jason

How to sound proof my home from a 17 Year Cicada Locust noise?

Here was a unique problem solved by using a Chimney Balloon. The homeowner below was having an issue with the droning noise of the 17 year cicada locust inside his home. So he used a Chimney Balloon to plug the flue since the damper was disabled due to his gas log fireplace. This reduced the noise infiltration and stopped the creepy cicada bugs from entering his home through the chimney. I have known the Chimney Balloon to work well to stop pigeon noise and other outside noises and ctitters that come down the chimney, but I never thought of it as a defense against the onslaught of 17 year cicada locust. Here is a quote from Google groups where it was posted:

"These 17 year cicada noises are driving me nuts! Maybe I have senitive ears. I am trying to soundproof my home as best I can and here are a few steps I have taken. I am open to more options:

1) I keep all the windows shut obviosly and run the AC.

2) I noticed much of the noise was coming from my fireplace since I have a gas log and the damper had to be clipped open (via building
code). So I stufed the chimney with a chimney balloon and that all but stopped it. My glass doors did not fdo the trick on keeping the noise out and I even had a few of the little creepers come down the chimney before I put the chimney balloon plug in.

3) I draw the curtains. Maybe this is psycological but it seems to
help a little

4) The little creepers were in my basement window wells as well so i got covers for those.

5) I have been wearing my Bose headphones around with the noise-cancelling turned on but no music playing but they are uncomfortable after about 6 hours. " - GJ

To Read the rest of this thread click here: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_thread/thread/fcb86bd2bb5b6fa8/f4abe3adf5871fb9?hl=en#f4abe3adf5871fb9